Discussion:
Too Much Stuff
(too old to reply)
craig eckhoff
2008-10-11 17:16:51 UTC
Permalink
I used a bike trailer for 3 monthes on a long distance tour. Like Douglas s
aid the bigger the pack the bigger the load. I had 50 to 60 lbs of gear plu
s 20 lbs of trailer to haul it. After the
trailer frame broke I got got rid of 1/2 of my gear and the trailer. All
the gear I kept I used on that trip. I just stick to rear rack, handlebar b
ag, and daypack. This was the setup I used for my 14,000 miles plus trip
around the perimeter of the USA. Worked just fine and I didn't feel that Sp
artan about the ride.
 
Pedal plenty
Craig =0A=0A=0A

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Ablejack Courtney
2008-10-12 06:29:47 UTC
Permalink
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike touri
ng. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike weighed in at ab
out 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my weight). Me and the bike is
about 225. This means everything; bike, bags, complete camping equipment, c
lothes, food and water bottles filled. I argue that I suffer less not more
for this choice. I don't think I'm anal about trimming the fat off my "rig
". I allow myself many comforts like a nice tent, sleeping pad and bag, cam
era, phone, journal, lock, kickstand, Berthoud luggage, fenders, leather an
d gel wrapped handlebars, Brooks Conquest saddle, hot meals, etc. I don't u
nderstand the folks who carry tons of stuff. It makes the riding way more
difficult and ultimately that's what we do. It's more dangerous due to less
responsive braking, and less stable handling. Slower and more taxing espec
ially climbing goes without saying. By the way, I've ridden this
Kogswell P (lugged steel) for two years and thousands of miles and never h
ad a flat tire. Could be just dumb luck.
Subject: Too Much Stuff
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 5:16 PM
I used a bike trailer for 3 monthes on a long distance tour.
Like Douglas s
aid the bigger the pack the bigger the load. I had 50 to 60
lbs of gear plu
s 20 lbs of trailer to haul it. After the
trailer frame broke I got got rid of 1/2 of my gear and the
trailer. All
the gear I kept I used on that trip. I just stick to rear
rack, handlebar b
ag, and daypack. This was the setup I used for my 14,000
miles plus trip
around the perimeter of the USA. Worked just fine and I
didn't feel that Sp
artan about the ride.
 
Pedal plenty
Craig =0A=0A=0A
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. dkoloko
2008-10-12 11:57:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Ablejack Courtney <jack.tour-/***@public.gmane.org>wrote:

As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike
touring. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike weighed in
at about 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my weight). Me and the bike
is about 225. This means everything; bike, bags, complete camping equipment,
clothes, food and water bottles filled.
Be interested in your packing list.

Demetri


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Mann, Dave
2008-10-14 20:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by . dkoloko
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Ablejack Courtney
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike
touring. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike
weighed in at about 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my
weight). Me and the bike is about 225. This means everything; bike,
bags, complete camping equipment, clothes, food and water bottles
filled.
Be interested in your packing list.
Me too.

For those exploring lowering pack weight, imo, the fastest
path is keep records of complete packing lists. If you're
computer savy enough to be on a mailing list, I'm guessing
that spreadsheets or similar are available to you.

These are great ways to track what is and isn't really used
or needed on a trip.

I'm not sure that lightweight means expensive. I've found
that lightweight only gets expensive if/when you want to
replace a needed item with a lighter/smaller version.

In general, I've found lightweight costs less. The fastest
way to light weight is to carry fewer things. Fewer things
cost less than more things.


-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
boyd
2008-10-14 22:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
Post by . dkoloko
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Ablejack Courtney
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike
touring. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike
weighed in at about 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my
weight). Me and the bike is about 225. This means everything; bike,
bags, complete camping equipment, clothes, food and water bottles
filled.
Be interested in your packing list.
Me too.
For those exploring lowering pack weight, imo, the fastest
path is keep records of complete packing lists. If you're
computer savy enough to be on a mailing list, I'm guessing
that spreadsheets or similar are available to you.
These are great ways to track what is and isn't really used
or needed on a trip.
Good point.
Post by Mann, Dave
I'm not sure that lightweight means expensive. I've found
that lightweight only gets expensive if/when you want to
replace a needed item with a lighter/smaller version.
Right.
Post by Mann, Dave
In general, I've found lightweight costs less. The fastest
way to light weight is to carry fewer things. Fewer things
cost less than more things.
Good point, but in camping gear light weight does cost more.

I rode to my friend Don Patterson;s house on Sunday, riding my Waterford
1200 - racing bike - with a single Ortlieb Minibiker light pannier on the
rear rack - carrying clothing for two days and not much else - a very small
handlebar bag with a camera, vest, liner gloves, and Buff in it and two
water bottles. When I got there, I weighed my bike. Loaded, it weighed 35
pounds. That is about what my 'real' touring bikes weigh before I put
anything on them.

While I could do short tours - up to a week - on my Waterford with a total
bike weight of 50 pounds including camping equipment, I could not do that
on my touring bikes. With full fenders, heavy touring wheels and tires,
and front and rear racks, my minimum touring weight would be about 65
pounds. When I add needed replacement parts and tools, the minimum weight
goes up to about 75 pounds.

Mark
boyd
2008-10-12 14:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ablejack Courtney
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike touri
ng. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike weighed in at ab
out 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my weight). Me and the bike is
about 225. This means everything; bike, bags, complete camping equipment, c
lothes, food and water bottles filled. I argue that I suffer less not more
for this choice. I don't think I'm anal about trimming the fat off my "rig
". I allow myself many comforts like a nice tent, sleeping pad and bag, cam
era, phone, journal, lock, kickstand, Berthoud luggage, fenders, leather an
d gel wrapped handlebars, Brooks Conquest saddle, hot meals, etc.
I agree. However, if you are not already a backpacker, it takes time and
money to learn about and buy the light weight gear than makes comfortable
touring possible with that light a load.
Post by Ablejack Courtney
I don't understand the folks who carry tons of stuff. It makes the
riding way more difficult and ultimately that's what we do. It's more
dangerous due to less responsive braking, and less stable handling.
Braking is less responsve when carrying more weight, but handling is more
stable, not less, when you distribute that weight properly.
Post by Ablejack Courtney
Slower and more taxing espec ially climbing goes without saying. By the
This also true, but not a big deal if you have low enough gearing. Adding
25 pound to your load, for example, would mean one gear lower climbing
speed. If you have that gear, this isn't a problem.
Post by Ablejack Courtney
way, I've ridden this Kogswell P (lugged steel) for two years and
thousands of miles and never h ad a flat tire. Could be just dumb luck.
Flat tires don't have much to do with loading, but rear tire wear
certainly does. The classic, pile it all on the rear, loading that leads
to unstable handling also causes rapid rear tire wear.

It is quite practical to carry 50 or 60 pound of stuff while touring. Most
tourists seem to weigh in around that range. I toured that way for many
tens of thousands of miles. It is possible to carry twice that much weight
and enjoy touring, even in the mountains. I've met, on the road, several
very experienced long distance tourers who were doing that.

Touring has never been a one style fits everyone activity. 'Too Much
Stuff' is a very subjective thing!

Mark
Jon Meinecke
2008-10-12 19:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by boyd
Post by Ablejack Courtney
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy
I agree. However, if you are not already a backpacker, it takes
time and money to learn about and buy the light weight gear than
makes comfortable touring possible with that light a load.
It seems easier and less expensive now than it did
when I was starting to acquire gear for backpacking.
Lots more choices and higher quality light-weight gear
than 30 years ago. %^)
Post by boyd
Touring has never been a one style fits everyone activity.
'Too Much Stuff' is a very subjective thing!
I agree with that.

I've enjoyed following this couples' tour journal.

_Cat Cruising Wisconsin_
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=90874&v=u

But when I read they didn't have much prior camping experience
and were using "18 lb cot tents" it seemed like they might have
benefited from a bit more research and advice.

I thought the 18 lbs *each* for the cot tents was too heavy, but
in their summary, they say the actual weight of their cot tents
ware 25 lbs *each*. Add to that another 5 lbs each for the
sleeping pads and 2-3 lbs for sleeping bags and they were
carrying more than 33 lbs each of camping gear even without
cooking supplies.

But they made it work and probably learned a few things
about what gear they really need. That's a successful tour!

Jon
Jim Foreman
2008-10-12 14:26:11 UTC
Permalink
I read a book written by this guy who set out to hike the AT. He left
with nothing and outfitted himself with things that others had discarded
along the trail. He said he had everything needed except food to hike the
full length within the first two weeks.

Jim Foreman

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ablejack Courtney" <jack.tour-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: Too Much Stuff
Post by Ablejack Courtney
As an avid backpacker, I employ the lightweight philosophy to my bike touri
ng. On my most recent seven day ride, my fully loaded bike weighed in at ab
out 50lbs (weighed on bathroom scale minus my weight). Me and the bike is
about 225. This means everything; bike, bags, complete camping equipment, c
lothes, food and water bottles filled. I argue that I suffer less not more
for this choice. I don't think I'm anal about trimming the fat off my "rig
". I allow myself many comforts like a nice tent, sleeping pad and bag, cam
era, phone, journal, lock, kickstand, Berthoud luggage, fenders, leather an
d gel wrapped handlebars, Brooks Conquest saddle, hot meals, etc. I don't u
nderstand the folks who carry tons of stuff. It makes the riding way more
difficult and ultimately that's what we do. It's more dangerous due to less
responsive braking, and less stable handling. Slower and more taxing espec
ially climbing goes without saying. By the way, I've ridden this
Kogswell P (lugged steel) for two years and thousands of miles and never h
ad a flat tire. Could be just dumb luck.
Wayne Estes
2008-10-12 20:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Mark Boyd wrote:

Touring has never been a one style fits everyone activity. 'Too Much
Stuff' is a very subjective thing!

Wayne replies:

Where you go and where you sleep at night makes a big difference in how
much stuff you need. I just finished a tour (Aug. 28 - Sept. 30) in
remote areas of Idaho and Oregon.

I use heavy 40mm wide Schwalbe Marathon tires so that I can safely and
reliably ride on washboarded gravel roads. In Idaho I did a 3 day
section of gravel roads. In Oregon I did a 1.5 day section of gravel.

I carry 2 to 3 days worth of food because I like to tour in remote
areas. I frequently ride more than 1 day between food stores.
Occasionally I ride 2 or 3 days between food stores. My food supply
often includes non-trivial amounts of supplies, such as 10 ounces of
powdered milk (smallest amount I can buy in grocery stores), a 20 ounce
bag of breakfast cereal, 4 ounces of canola oil, 4 ounces of sugar,
etc. I started the tour with 1.5 pounds of Coleman fuel which lasted
for half the tour.

I carry full rain gear (jacket, pants, booties, gloves, helmet cover)
even though my tour was during the dry season. I used the rain gear
only one day, but it was essential. I had steady cold rain with a
strong headwind for 5 hours. In an unpopulated desert with absolutely
no shelter from the wind and rain.

I carry thermal underwear, thick wool socks, and a balaclava just for
occasional use while sleeping, so that I can be comfortable on the
coldest nights. The coldest nights on my tour were about 25F, in early
September. The longer your tour, the more likely you are to encounter
"extreme" weather conditions.

I carry tools and spare parts that allow me to repair most anything that
can break.

About half of the National Forest campgrounds had no drinking water. My
1-pound water filter was used often.

My loaded bike weighs about 100 pounds, but it works reliably under a
very wide range of conditions. In 27,000 miles of loaded tours I never
once had to get help or a ride from a motorist.

Wayne Estes
Oakland, Oregon, USA
Tom Marchand
2008-10-13 00:20:21 UTC
Permalink
What type of stove are you using?
Post by Wayne Estes
I started the tour with 1.5 pounds of Coleman fuel which lasted
for half the tour.
craig eckhoff
2008-10-13 14:15:56 UTC
Permalink
I  use a tuna can. Half fill with sand,pebbles, or dry dirt. Add seve
ral capfull of HEET.  I set 4 gutter nails (I use them for tent pegs also
) around the can. Light with a kitchen match. Set a beef stew can on
top for a pot. Or a coffee can, both ends removed, and a few notches cut
out top and bottom. A few small holes with gutter nails stuck all the w
ay thru.
Can make and dispose of as needed.
 
Pedal plenty
Craig  =0A=0A=0A

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Jim Foreman
2008-10-13 15:20:45 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "craig eckhoff" <craigeckhoff-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: What kind of Stove?
I use a tuna can. Half fill with sand,pebbles, or dry dirt. Add seve
ral capfull of HEET. I set 4 gutter nails (I use them for tent pegs also
) around the can. Light with a kitchen match. Set a beef stew can on
top for a pot. Or a coffee can, both ends removed, and a few notches cut
out top and bottom. A few small holes with gutter nails stuck all the w
ay thru.
Can make and dispose of as needed.
I've done the same basic thing except using a can of Sterno like they
use under chafing dishes on buffet lines. I use gutter spikes with a piece
of aluminum foil as a windbreak. Also made stoves out of coffee cans.

http://www.jimforeman.com/Stories/cleaning_garage.htm

Loading Image...

Jim



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David H. Young
2008-10-13 15:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Or, to get fancy, a Trangia stove with windscreen/pot-rest. My favorite: the
Mini Trangia (http://www.trangia.se/english/2924.mini_trangia.html). Except
I've substituted a titanium pot, with fry-pan/lid, that holds stove &
incidentals. Might go back to aluminum for the pot, or even steel...the
lighter weight is good, but (anecdotal) the titanium seems to take longer to
boil stuff. Probably ought to test that at some point.

And I use "denatured" alcohol when available. Good except at altitude, where
it still provides an opportunity to enhance patience. This is part of my
lightweight backpacking/touring kit--at least for long trips that involve
resupply. Fuel of some sort is available everywhere (as shown below). Have
used it up to about 7000 feet. Higher than that & I'm taking something else,
or not cooking in a way that involves boiling water, or both.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "craig eckhoff" <craigeckhoff-/***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 7:15 AM
To: <touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: What kind of Stove?
I use a tuna can. Half fill with sand,pebbles, or dry dirt. Add seve
ral capfull of HEET. I set 4 gutter nails (I use them for tent pegs also
) around the can. Light with a kitchen match. Set a beef stew can on
top for a pot. Or a coffee can, both ends removed, and a few notches cut
out top and bottom. A few small holes with gutter nails stuck all the w
ay thru.
Can make and dispose of as needed.
Pedal plenty
Craig =0A=0A=0A
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Jon Meinecke
2008-10-13 17:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Marchand
Post by Wayne Estes
I started the tour with 1.5 pounds of Coleman fuel which lasted
for half the tour.
What type of stove are you using?
1.5 lbs of Coleman is probably about 24 ounces.

For my liquid fuel stove (Optimus Nova), that's maybe 6 days "cooking"
for one depending on how much simmering is required. That's maybe
16 ounces of water boiled for breakfast and 24 for supper.

The Nova probably wouldn't qaulify as light weight, at least not
ultra light weight. It's around 12 ounces, I think, plus the fuel bottle.
It would relatively easy to resupply fuel on a bike tour as it burns
unleaded gas.

For over-nighters, I usually take a canister fuel (isobutane) burner.
Simple and compact. The stove burner itself is maybe 6-8 ounces.
Getting replacement canisters on tour could be a bit more
problematic, depending on locale. One reason I don't really
"like" canister stoves is that it's difficult to tell how much fuel
is left in the canister. But I do like them for convenience.

I also have an alcohol burner (brass military surplus), not ultra light,
and not terrible efficient. I've never taken it touring. There are better
alcohol burners including some homemade ones. Fuel availability
on tour is probably almost as good as gasoline: auto supplies,
hardware stores, and in dire emergency, liquor store! %^)

BTU per ounce is less in alcohol fuel than in white gas/gasoline.
Likewise, I the propane/butane BTU per ounce is less than white
gas/gasoline. So for someone going long unsupported stretches,
higher BTU density in the fuel may be a small advantage.

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Energy_density

Obviously, there are a number of tradeoffs and effciency issues.
The Jetboil stoves/heat exchanger pots might tip the balance for
weight vs. useful heat... In the end, the weight differences are
probably in the ounces, not pounds. So whatever stove you like
and can reliably resupply fuel for, is good.

Jon
Scott Loveless
2008-10-14 13:47:21 UTC
Permalink
the Mini Trangia (http://www.trangia.se/english/2924.mini_trangia.html).
The mini Trangia is on my short list at the moment. What are you seeing
as far as boil times? I like steel cut oats in the morning, and that
requires bringing the water (about a cup) to a boil and them simmering
for about 10 minutes, maybe longer. How well does the Trangia's simmer
ring work? And how long can you simmer a pot after bringing it to a boil?
--
Scott Loveless
New Cumberland, PA
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
Mann, Dave
2008-10-14 17:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Loveless
The mini Trangia is on my short list at the moment. What are you
seeing as far as boil times? I like steel cut oats in the morning,
and that requires bringing the water (about a cup) to a boil and them
simmering for about 10 minutes, maybe longer. How well does the
Trangia's simmer ring work? And how long can you simmer a pot after
bringing it to a boil?
I *LOVE* my Trangi Mini. But, it's not really the best
for cooking that requires prolonged simmers.

2 Things regarding the simmering.

First, you need to understand and get a feel for how the stove
reacts to long burns. As it heats up and you get less fuel
in the stove, the fuel vaporizes faster and stove burns hotter
and hotter. Eventually, the fuel will even start to boil.
If you are used to white gas stoves that rely on self-heating
to stay primed (older SVEAs and Optimus stoves), this won't
be surprising. But, it does mean that you need to stay on
top of the simmering.

The simmer ring does sort of work in the sense that it suggests
to the stove that is should burn less hot. In practice, moving
the cover over is a crude movement. I carry 2 small wooden
dowels for this and that helps somewhat. Still, once the
stove starts to go into after burner mode, it's not going to
simmer super well.

The second thing to realize is that stove is affected a great
deal by surface temperature and wind. Like white gas stoves,
you need to have an insulating base for the stove in the winter.
Unlike gas stoves, the alcohol stoves burn *hotter* in the
wind. This is great mountains!!! With a good wind screen,
the thing will burn like a jet engine in the wind.

What this means is that boiling times are very hard to
predict as is simmering response. If you want consistently
fast boil times, go with white gas. If you want total
control over simmering, stick with cannister stoves.

The things that make the Trangia's great is their durability,
ease of use, reliability, very low weight and (for bike
touring) easy to find fuel.

The link below is 5 years out of date. Since I wrote this
piece, I've been using the Trangia the most out of my stoves.
If it were me, I would go with 3-minute Oats for camping.
I wouldn't hesitate to do those on my Trangia. 10-minute
oats... That's asking a lot.

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/Stoves.txt

-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
Anne Paulson
2008-10-14 17:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
If you want consistently
fast boil times, go with white gas. If you want total
control over simmering, stick with cannister stoves.
If you want both, use the MSR Dragonfly (a white gas stove). It's a
little heavier, but you can actually cook on it. The MSR Windpro (a
canister stove) is also claimed to be good for cooking, but I've never
tried it.
--
-- Anne Paulson
Live free or drive
Mann, Dave
2008-10-14 18:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne Paulson
Post by Mann, Dave
If you want consistently
fast boil times, go with white gas. If you want total
control over simmering, stick with cannister stoves.
If you want both, use the MSR Dragonfly (a white gas stove). It's a
little heavier, but you can actually cook on it. The MSR Windpro (a
canister stove) is also claimed to be good for cooking, but I've never
tried it.
Among the MSRs, the Dragonfly has a good reputation for
good simmering.

But, I've sworn off MSR stoves. On 2 separate occasions,
I've seen MSR stoves put into full melt down mode in which
they burned uncontrollably as the pump assemblies litterally
melted down and added to the fireballs. Both were in the
winter and both incidents were in climbing huts and I really
don't care to see another one. I'm just guessing that in
both cases the problem was operator error [1].

When you add to this the number of times I've sat patiently
in the cold waiting for friends to unplug their clogged MSRs,
I have a dim view of those stoves.

Lastly, for bike touring, I've given up on white gas entirely.
It's fine for over nights and short trips. But if you're out
long enough to need a resuply of fuel, it's a pain in the
neck to find. I'm sticking with alcohol for bike touring.

I updated my stove page finally.
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/Stoves.txt

-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
Rob
2008-10-15 01:39:35 UTC
Permalink
I Second the MSR Dragonfly....the only problem in 6 or so years of
touring is at full throttle its a bit noisy..!!
But it DOES simmer, and it also does the Jet engine blowtorch thing, and
is adjustable in between.
We often use Unleaded petrol when Shellite is hard to find and have
never had any soot or carbon problems.
I have disassembled the stove twice to check it before long trips and it
has never needed anything replaced.
With a bit of fiddling you can fit the stove inside the cooking gear so
space is not an issue.
Yes it will do 10 minute porridge or reduce a red wine sauce and have no
issues either way..!!

Cheers
Rob
Post by Anne Paulson
Post by Mann, Dave
If you want consistently
fast boil times, go with white gas. If you want total
control over simmering, stick with cannister stoves.
If you want both, use the MSR Dragonfly (a white gas stove). It's a
little heavier, but you can actually cook on it. The MSR Windpro (a
canister stove) is also claimed to be good for cooking, but I've never
tried it.
--
Rob

In sunny Adelaide


Australia is a Dam big country by bike.
South Australia is also the driest State in the driest (inhabited)
continent.


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Geoff Semon
2008-10-15 03:13:57 UTC
Permalink
We use a dragon fly and prior to that a Whisperlite International and the
large trangia.
As I'm always cooking for at least 2, the Trangia is just too slow. I always
seemed to run out of fuel at the wrong moment.
With the Dragonfly, I can make some toasts to have with the smoked salmon,
cook a nice pasta dish and perhaps some crepes for desert without having to
refuel. Try cooking for 5 on a trangia!

Not keen on the idea of having to carry and throw canisters away. Petrol is
so easy to get. Anyone tried to by alcohol in Norway? Costs a fortune when
you find a place that sells it.

-----Original Message-----
From: touring-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:touring-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2008 3:37 AM
To: Mann, Dave
Cc: Touring
Subject: Re: What kind of Stove?
Post by Mann, Dave
If you want consistently
fast boil times, go with white gas. If you want total control over
simmering, stick with cannister stoves.
If you want both, use the MSR Dragonfly (a white gas stove). It's a little
heavier, but you can actually cook on it. The MSR Windpro (a canister stove)
is also claimed to be good for cooking, but I've never tried it.

--
-- Anne Paulson
Live free or drive
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Jon Meinecke
2008-10-14 18:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Like white gas stoves, you need to have an insulating
base for the stove in the winter.
Perhaps you mean "like pressurized gas canister stoves".

Most white gas (liquid fuel) stoves have pumps to pressurize
the fuel container and "generators" to vaporize it. While
priming a white gas stove (preheating the generator)
may require more care in cold weather, getting
sufficient fuel flow isn't really a problem.

On the other hand, a pressurized gas canister may indeed
need to be warmed and insulated from cold surfaces to
function well. Obviously, the SVEA 123 and similar
self-pressurizing liquid fuel stoves and may suffer the
same cold-surface issues. There was/is a pump
attachment option for the 123.

Jon
Andrejs Ozolins
2008-10-14 19:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Meinecke
Obviously, the SVEA 123 and similar
self-pressurizing liquid fuel stoves and may suffer the
same cold-surface issues. There was/is a pump
attachment option for the 123.
Obvious, but only partly true. Yes, cold fuel takes more to get up to
temp/pressure. But it's pretty easy to provide the extra boost. I've had
the pump-less Svea for what must be over 35 years by now and used it in
all sorts of situations. The quick way to light it is to spill some fuel
in the well around the burner stem and set it on fire. That produces
enough heat that it pretty much doesn't matter what the stove is sitting
on or what the ambient temp is this side of Antarctica. Once the stove
is going, I wouldn't set it on ice because I think the ice would begin
to melt and make the stove unstable; but I don't think it would slow
down the burn much.

I've never figured out why they added the pump to the 123.

Andrejs
Ithaca, NY
Mann, Dave
2008-10-14 20:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrejs Ozolins
Post by Jon Meinecke
Obviously, the SVEA 123 and similar
self-pressurizing liquid fuel stoves and may suffer the
same cold-surface issues. There was/is a pump
attachment option for the 123.
Jon, actually, I was thinking about white gas stove,
not cannister stoves but now that you mention it, cannister
stoves generally need an insulating base for snow use
too. As you mention, Svea/Optimus style white gas
stoves in which the fuel tanks are heat pressurized
need an insulated base of some sort, otherwise they
loose their prime.

But, stoves with separate pump-style tanks like
the MSRs and Optimus Nova need a base for snow use
too, otherwise they melt down into the snow.
Post by Andrejs Ozolins
Obvious, but only partly true. Yes, cold fuel takes more to get up to
temp/pressure. But it's pretty easy to provide the extra boost. I've
had the pump-less Svea for what must be over 35 years by now and used
it in all sorts of situations. The quick way to light it is to spill
some fuel in the well around the burner stem and set it on fire.
Nod. A buddy of mine carries an eye dropper for this purpose.
I prefer Mautz Fire Ribbon or similar. It allows you to
start the primer and calmly attach the windscreen with no
flare up.
Post by Andrejs Ozolins
I've never figured out why they added the pump to the 123.
My understanding is for use at altitude. My winter camping
is restricted to NewEngland, so all I need to do is deal
with the cold.

In any event, we've strayed way off course from bike touring.
At least, I don't bike tour in sub-zero temps!! That's
ski touring time!!


-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
Philip Donahue
2008-10-13 23:42:00 UTC
Permalink
I use a Jet Boil for water and the Magic Stove, a very small
collapsable wood burner from Switzerland, for cooking with my wok.

Phil Donahue
Kennersley Point Marina
410.490.0810 Cell
I use a tuna can. Half fill with sand,pebbles, or dry dirt. Add seve
ral capfull of HEET. I set 4 gutter nails (I use them for tent pegs
also
) around the can. Light with a kitchen match. Set a beef stew can on
top for a pot. Or a coffee can, both ends removed, and a few notches
cut
out top and bottom. A few small holes with gutter nails stuck all
the w
ay thru.
Can make and dispose of as needed.
Pedal plenty
Craig =0A=0A=0A
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Wayne Estes
2008-10-13 18:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Tom Marchand wrote:

What type of stove are you using?

Wayne replies:

I mostly use an old Coleman Peak1 Multi-Fuel stove. Multi-fuel is a
misnomer because it's set up to burn Coleman fuel and you have to swap
the generator to burn kerosene. I also have an Optimus Nova stove that
weighs about 4 ounces less, but I hate using it. The removable fuel
bottle is annoying to deal with, the jet engine noise drives me crazy,
and it scorches food because the heat is so concentrated.

My stove is heavy and Coleman fuel is increasingly difficult to find,
especially in small quantities. Nowadays, it's nearly impossible to
find a nearby camper who can fill my fuel bottle from their gallon can
of Coleman fuel. Everybody uses propane bottles now. Someday I might
switch to an alcohol or canister stove to make it easier to get fuel
during tours.

Jon Meinecke wrote:

1.5 lbs of Coleman is probably about 24 ounces.

For my liquid fuel stove (Optimus Nova), that's maybe 6 days "cooking"
for one depending on how much simmering is required. That's maybe
16 ounces of water boiled for breakfast and 24 for supper.

Wayne replies:

For me, 24 ounces of Coleman fuel lasts about 2 weeks with the Coleman
Peak1 stove. The Optimus Nova stove seemed to consume fuel at a faster
rate. My typical daily stove use is to heat water for tea in the
morning, and then cook pasta in the evening.

Some people tour with only 30 pounds of stuff. I sometimes haul 30
pounds of just food, water, and beverages!

Wayne Estes
Oakland, Oregon, USA
John Meier
2008-10-13 19:20:59 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Estes" <w9ae-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Too Much Stuff
Post by Wayne Estes
I mostly use an old Coleman Peak1 Multi-Fuel stove. Multi-fuel is a
misnomer because it's set up to burn Coleman fuel and you have to swap the
generator to burn kerosene. I also have an Optimus Nova stove that weighs
about 4 ounces less, but I hate using it. The removable fuel bottle is
annoying to deal with, the jet engine noise drives me crazy, and it
scorches food because the heat is so concentrated.
Wayne

This spring I spent some time camping with one of the guys at MSR who is
in charge of developing stoves. His stove of choice is the MSR Reactor. We
spent several beers talking about stoves and I am really impressed with the
Reactor. It will be my next stove. It is incredibly fast in boiling water.
I don't have any time with the stove so I don't know how it simmers stuff.
It looks like it would do a fair job not burning stuff like those jet engine
stoves.

http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/reactor.asp

John Meier
Washougal, Wa
Mann, Dave
2008-10-14 20:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Meier
This spring I spent some time camping with one of the guys at MSR
who is in charge of developing stoves. His stove of choice is the
MSR Reactor. We spent several beers talking about stoves and I am
really impressed with the Reactor. It will be my next stove. It is
incredibly fast in boiling water. I don't have any time with the
stove so I don't know how it simmers stuff. It looks like it would do
a fair job not burning stuff like those jet engine stoves.
http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/reactor.asp
What's the hurry when it comes to boiling times?

For bike touring, I want a) light weight, b) small size,
c) reliability and d) easily restocked fuel when on the
road.

The Trangia alcohol stoves nail it on all of these criteria
in my book.

Stoves like the reactor and JetBoil are geared towards climbers
using just add water meals. They excell at doing one thing
and one thing only. Boiling water fast. They lack versatility
in cooking options and damn you to carrying cannisters.

I suggest generic canister stoves to folks who can't commit to
learning how to use an white gas or alcohol stove.

This form of cannister stove, imo, is a hyper-specialized
tool for climbers. I just don't get their appeal for general
backpacking or for bike touring. So they boil water in under
4 minutes? I'm not sure what buys me on the trail.

-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
alex wetmore
2008-10-14 20:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
What's the hurry when it comes to boiling times?
Usually when I'm bike touring and I stop to eat I want to eat quickly.
I might have just pulled into camp and I'm tired and hungry. I might
have just woken up and it is 35F and I want my tea now to warm me up.
When I've toured with slow or annoying stoves (I classify pressurized
white gas stoves as annoying) I just don't use them.
Post by Mann, Dave
Stoves like the reactor and JetBoil are geared towards climbers
using just add water meals. They excell at doing one thing
and one thing only. Boiling water fast. They lack versatility
in cooking options and damn you to carrying cannisters.
They do better than that. I haven't had a camping meal that I can't
do on a Jetboil or Primus canister stove. Scotch Oats (which require
~10 minutes of simmer time), thai noodles, soups, cous cous are all
examples of items that cook easily for me in these stoves. Heating
water is the core of all of them, but none of them are hydration-only
type backpacking foods.
Post by Mann, Dave
This form of cannister stove, imo, is a hyper-specialized
tool for climbers. I just don't get their appeal for general
backpacking or for bike touring. So they boil water in under
4 minutes? I'm not sure what buys me on the trail.
Ease of use. Cleaner. Quicker makes it easier to share one stove
among a party of many. When I tour with two other people we bring one
stove. In a typical morning it makes enough water for 2 of us to have
tea, 1 to have coffee, hot cereal for everyone, and hot water to clean
up. That is 2 to 2.5 liters of water. With a Trangia one of us would
be done eating when the other was just getting water for their tea.
With the JetBoil things come fast enough for us to eat together.

I think it's okay for people to have different preferences. I can
understand the benefits of alcohol based stoves (and have made and
used them myself). I think that the benefits of canister stoves
go beyond fast boil times.

alex
Mary Shaw
2008-10-14 23:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Another consideration -- an alcohol stove can go in checked baggage. After
all, you can carry liquid booze up to 100 proof, and the alcohol burner is
dry. I put it in a ziplock bag with a note saying that it's an alcohol
burner and is completely dry. No problems so far.

So I usually take an alcohol stove when I'm flying to a tour. Nearer home,
I use a Coleman multi-fuel stove, probably a Peak 1, though it's over 10
years old so it might have been called something else. A friend with a
similar stove fills his with unleaded gas at the pump (ever seen a gas
station attendant when you fill up for 25 cents?)

I used to use the Svea 123 class of backpacking stoves -- boiling water
fast, but very hard to simmer. I got tired of add-boiling-water cuisine and
decided to invest the weight in a stove I can actually cook on. We usually
have pancakes for breakfast

Mary Shaw
Post by Mann, Dave
What's the hurry when it comes to boiling times?
Usually when I'm bike touring and I stop to eat I want to eat quickly. I
might have just pulled into camp and I'm tired and hungry. I might
have just woken up and it is 35F and I want my tea now to warm me up. When
I've toured with slow or annoying stoves (I classify pressurized
white gas stoves as annoying) I just don't use them.
Stoves like the reactor and JetBoil are geared towards climbers
Post by Mann, Dave
using just add water meals. They excell at doing one thing
and one thing only. Boiling water fast. They lack versatility
in cooking options and damn you to carrying cannisters.
They do better than that. I haven't had a camping meal that I can't
do on a Jetboil or Primus canister stove. Scotch Oats (which require
~10 minutes of simmer time), thai noodles, soups, cous cous are all
examples of items that cook easily for me in these stoves. Heating
water is the core of all of them, but none of them are hydration-only
type backpacking foods.
This form of cannister stove, imo, is a hyper-specialized
Post by Mann, Dave
tool for climbers. I just don't get their appeal for general
backpacking or for bike touring. So they boil water in under
4 minutes? I'm not sure what buys me on the trail.
Ease of use. Cleaner. Quicker makes it easier to share one stove
among a party of many. When I tour with two other people we bring one
stove. In a typical morning it makes enough water for 2 of us to have
tea, 1 to have coffee, hot cereal for everyone, and hot water to clean
up. That is 2 to 2.5 liters of water. With a Trangia one of us would
be done eating when the other was just getting water for their tea. With
the JetBoil things come fast enough for us to eat together.
I think it's okay for people to have different preferences. I can
understand the benefits of alcohol based stoves (and have made and
used them myself). I think that the benefits of canister stoves go beyond
fast boil times.
alex
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Peter Saint James
2008-10-14 23:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Here's another little weight saving technique for the musically
inclined cyclist:


http://laughingsquid.com/mark-growden-plays-the-handlebars/


Peter
MH
2008-10-15 05:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Saint James
Here's another little weight saving technique for the musically
http://laughingsquid.com/mark-growden-plays-the-handlebars/
Hey, pretty cool ...
what's needed is a shaft up the old wazoo seat post for the other
party so fund raising gets the ol' adrenalin pumping by threating
the act. Drill, Baby, Drill. ;) -Mark H.
Mann, Dave
2008-10-15 20:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by alex wetmore
Post by Mann, Dave
What's the hurry when it comes to boiling times?
Usually when I'm bike touring and I stop to eat I want to eat
quickly.
Post by alex wetmore
I might have just pulled into camp and I'm tired and hungry. I might
have just woken up and it is 35F and I want my tea now to warm me up.
When I've toured with slow or annoying stoves (I classify pressurized
white gas stoves as annoying) I just don't use them.
Interesting. Do you find yourself more in a hurry to
eat when bike touring compared to backpacking?

I find that even when winter camping, I'm less interested
in speed than I am reliability. I can almost always find
other camp chores to work on while water is boiling.

There are 2 occasions where I can think of time being
of the essence for non-extreme climbers.

The first is melting snow in the winter. Here in New England,
this is a very rare need since water sources are typically
available but when you do need to melt snow, you need high BTU
output in a sustained fashion. My money in this situation is
with white gas stoves, but plenty of climbers use cannisters.

The second is for trailside hot lunches in horrible weather.
I've had hiking partners who insisted on hot soup on cold
wet days, which often meant stamping my feet waiting for
them to brew up. I'm glad they didn't use alcohol stoves -
they would be lousy for that.

I'd be curious to know what you find annoying about white
gas stoves. I'll conceed that some are more annoying than
others. I put Coleman Peak 1s and MSRs at the top of the
annoying list and the old Optimus and Sveas as way down
on the annoying list. My Svea sparks up everytime and
I haven't had flare up since I can't remember. They *do*
require having a set priming ritual.
Post by alex wetmore
Post by Mann, Dave
Stoves like the reactor and JetBoil are geared towards climbers
using just add water meals. They excell at doing one thing
and one thing only. Boiling water fast. They lack versatility
in cooking options and damn you to carrying cannisters.
They do better than that. I haven't had a camping meal that I can't
do on a Jetboil or Primus canister stove. Scotch Oats (which require
~10 minutes of simmer time), thai noodles, soups, cous cous are all
examples of items that cook easily for me in these stoves. Heating
water is the core of all of them, but none of them are hydration-only
type backpacking foods.
I remain skeptical on 2 fronts. With respect to JetBoils and
JetBoil knock offs like the MSR, I'm surprised you could cook
10 minutes oats on them without scorching the pan. My gripe
here is the tall thin pot. Perhaps I should have said something
like this. The problem with the JetBoil and similar systems
is that they are fully integrated burner/pot systems that force
you to do all your cooking in the single pot that works with
the system. And it's a tall thin pot at that.

I'm not opposed to generic canister stoves. I think they
have pros and cons like both white gas and alcohol. They
simmer the best and by far the easiest to operate. I suggest
them to all my friends who are just getting into camping
due to their ease of use. No question about it.
Post by alex wetmore
Ease of use. Cleaner. Quicker makes it easier to share one stove
among a party of many. When I tour with two other people we bring one
stove. In a typical morning it makes enough water for 2 of us to have
tea, 1 to have coffee, hot cereal for everyone, and hot water to clean
up. That is 2 to 2.5 liters of water. With a Trangia one of us would
be done eating when the other was just getting water for their tea.
With the JetBoil things come fast enough for us to eat together.
I cook for 2 to 4 on my Trangia all the time. It works just
like any other single burner stove I've used. In fact,
it generally works much better at meal time due to the
safety and quiet.

First round is tea water.
Second and third rounds are for the main meal which can range
from a 2 pot meal to a 2 pot meal.
Last round is for tea and clean up water.
Post by alex wetmore
I think it's okay for people to have different preferences.
Sure. Hence the Colin Fletcher quote about stoves and religion.

This is going to sound way more condescending than I mean it.
But I'm really convinced that people's preference for cannisters
due to ease of use issues is really a gloss for lack of
experience with alcohol or white gas stoves. That's really
not meant to be a dig at you or anybody else. It's more a
reflection of my own experiences with the stoves.

My comfort with my Svea is rooted in living off of it
for 2 months straight one summer. That's not a reasonable
thing to ask people to do just to learn their stove.

With my Trangia, it took me 3 years to get to the point
where I would take it as my only stove on a backpacking trip
in October (packing for one as we speak) in New England.
During that long ramp up time, I did lots of backyard
teas and carried it as a spare on many, many trips.

Once I got to a basic level of compentancy with stove (not saying
you haven't), it offered up a different set of pros and
cons, especially for bike touring. The Tragia never fails,
never surprises me with empty cannisters (yes, I've had
buds screw this up several times) and has fuel readily
available while on the road. Add to that the light weight
and compact size and I think it's a real winner.

Last comment... I wouldn't judge Trangias by the performance
of home made alcohol stoves.


-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
alex wetmore
2008-10-15 21:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
Post by alex wetmore
I might have just pulled into camp and I'm tired and hungry. I might
have just woken up and it is 35F and I want my tea now to warm me up.
When I've toured with slow or annoying stoves (I classify pressurized
white gas stoves as annoying) I just don't use them.
Interesting. Do you find yourself more in a hurry to
eat when bike touring compared to backpacking?
Yes, because my days on the bike are longer than my days hiking. I
can comfortably bike for 8-10 hours, but I can't comfortably hike for
that long (just because I bike more than I hike). With cycling it
isn't too unusual for me to arrive at camp after dark.
Post by Mann, Dave
I'd be curious to know what you find annoying about white
gas stoves. I'll conceed that some are more annoying than
others. I put Coleman Peak 1s and MSRs at the top of the
annoying list and the old Optimus and Sveas as way down
on the annoying list. My Svea sparks up everytime and
I haven't had flare up since I can't remember. They *do*
require having a set priming ritual.
The priming ritual is annoying. Pouring flammable gas is annoying.
Pumping the stove up is annoying. Getting a big ball of flame before
the generator tube is ready is annoying. My experience is with MSR
and Coleman stoves.
Post by Mann, Dave
Post by alex wetmore
They do better than that. I haven't had a camping meal that I can't
do on a Jetboil or Primus canister stove. Scotch Oats (which require
~10 minutes of simmer time), thai noodles, soups, cous cous are all
examples of items that cook easily for me in these stoves. Heating
water is the core of all of them, but none of them are hydration-only
type backpacking foods.
I remain skeptical on 2 fronts. With respect to JetBoils and
JetBoil knock offs like the MSR, I'm surprised you could cook
10 minutes oats on them without scorching the pan.
You soak them overnight (scotch oats require that anyway, unless you want
to boil for an hour) then run them at a low heat with a good amount of
stiring.
Post by Mann, Dave
My gripe here is the tall thin pot. Perhaps I should have said
something like this. The problem with the JetBoil and similar
systems is that they are fully integrated burner/pot systems that
force you to do all your cooking in the single pot that works with
the system. And it's a tall thin pot at that.
You need to look at the systems more. There are 2 different pots for
the Jetboil system, along with a frying pan. The other stove that I
use is a Primus with heat exchanger, and it has a large 3 liter pot.
I don't use that one for bike touring though.
Post by Mann, Dave
This is going to sound way more condescending than I mean it.
But I'm really convinced that people's preference for cannisters
due to ease of use issues is really a gloss for lack of
experience with alcohol or white gas stoves. That's really
not meant to be a dig at you or anybody else. It's more a
reflection of my own experiences with the stoves.
It is condescending because I've told you that I've used all three fuel
systems and my experiences with them. It's condescending to assume that
my experiences were wrong and that I came to the wrong conclusion.

alex
Mann, Dave
2008-10-15 21:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by alex wetmore
Post by Mann, Dave
This is going to sound way more condescending than I mean it.
But I'm really convinced that people's preference for cannisters
due to ease of use issues is really a gloss for lack of
experience with alcohol or white gas stoves. That's really
not meant to be a dig at you or anybody else. It's more a
reflection of my own experiences with the stoves.
It is condescending because I've told you that I've used all three
fuel systems and my experiences with them. It's condescending to
assume that my experiences were wrong and that I came to the wrong
conclusion.
I'm reordering the mail to put the important stuff first.

Alex, I apologize for coming off wrong. I know better.
If I think something could be taken wrong, it almost
always is. I'm very sorry.
Post by alex wetmore
Post by Mann, Dave
I'd be curious to know what you find annoying about white
gas stoves.
The priming ritual is annoying. Pouring flammable gas is annoying.
Pumping the stove up is annoying. Getting a big ball of flame before
the generator tube is ready is annoying. My experience is with MSR
and Coleman stoves.
I think the Colemans are like Huffy's. I don't think I've
ever seen one fire up with out massive flare up. I did
talk to one guy in my life who swore by his instead of
at it. He worked as a ranger out west somewhere. This
fits my basic comment that experience with a stove is the
single biggest factor in success. Some are just harder than
others.

MSRs are also tricky imo. The summer I lived off of my
Svea, we also had a Whisperlite. We got fairly good with
that stove but never got to a point where flare up was
rare.

If your experience with white gas stoves is with Colemans
and MSRs, I can understand that they leave a bad taste.
Especially the Colemans.
Post by alex wetmore
You need to look at the systems more. There are 2 different pots for
the Jetboil system, along with a frying pan.
I will have to check them out better. I wrote them off
during the first year or so they were out and haven't
looked back at them.





-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
alex wetmore
2008-10-16 02:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
Alex, I apologize for coming off wrong.
Thanks for the apology. I've been in the same position.
Post by Mann, Dave
If your experience with white gas stoves is with Colemans and MSRs,
I can understand that they leave a bad taste. Especially the
Colemans.
The Colemans were primarily during my childhood, but I also had some
experience with one of their backpacking models (Apex?).
Post by Mann, Dave
Post by alex wetmore
You need to look at the systems more. There are 2 different pots
for the Jetboil system, along with a frying pan.
I will have to check them out better. I wrote them off during the
first year or so they were out and haven't looked back at them.
I think they had one big innovation, which is putting the heat
exchanger around the base of the pot. This does seem to increase
efficiency. You can't feel the heat coming around the side of the
pot, which says quite a bit.

The other big advantage is having a compact system which stays
assembled. Others (including Trangia) did a nice job of making
everything fit into the pot. JetBoil just took a step farther and
lets the fuel and burner stay together when placed in the pot. For
bicycle touring this is nice because the whole setup is compact (about
the size of a Nalgene water bottle).

About a month ago I bought a Primus Eta stove (it is the one with a 3
liter pot). Like the JetBoil and MSR Reactor this stove has the heat
exchanger. The burner is larger and seems like it does a better job
at not scorching (but I've only used it at home, so I don't have
backcountry experience yet).
Post by Mann, Dave
I cook for 2 to 4 on my Trangia all the time. It works just
like any other single burner stove I've used. In fact,
it generally works much better at meal time due to the
safety and quiet.
First round is tea water.
Second and third rounds are for the main meal which can range
from a 2 pot meal to a 2 pot meal.
Last round is for tea and clean up water.
I should have been clear that I wasn't talking about making a single
meal for 2-4 people. I was talking about our experiences in using a
single stove to make 3 different meals for 3 different riders. This
is necessary because we have 3 very different diets (Larry is allergic
to gluten, John is an omnivore, and I'm a pescetarian). Sometimes
we share food, but more than often we are preparing different items.

The JetBoil handles this nicely. I don't think it would work so well
with the Trangia (but I haven't tried it).

alex
Chris Jackson
2008-10-15 21:40:56 UTC
Permalink
The priming ritual is annoying. Pouring flammable gas is annoying. Pumping
the stove up is annoying. Getting a big ball of flame before
the generator tube is ready is annoying. My experience is with MSR
and Coleman stoves.
I'll add on to Alex's annoyances with my own: the smell of the fuel is
annoying; the soot (though minimal) is annoying; the fact that old fuel
tends to clog the generator is annoying.

I have vast experience with an early model WhisperLite--I'm quite
comfortable with it, can control it's idiosyncrasies, know how to simmer
with it, etc. It works well. But canisters are generally better for me
primarily because I can share cooking responsibilities with my wife and
child, who have little interest in learning the MSR.

I also use alcohol stoves (homemade), and like them a lot, though my wife
would find them annoying, too.

I think it boils (sorry) down to the fact that there are two types of bike
tourers (backpackers, kayakers, etc): stove hobbyists, and everyone else.
I'm a stove hobbyist, in an admittedly limited way. For us, dealing with
"annoyances" is part of the fun, and we thus relabel it "technique." For
almost everyone else, canisters rule primarily because they operate so
similarly to what most people use in their homes. There's virtually no
learning curve. Now that my trips are often family affairs, I'm choosing to
leave the technique part out of it so that "dealing with the stove" isn't a
dad thing.

Chris


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Mann, Dave
2008-10-15 23:12:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Jackson
I'll add on to Alex's annoyances with my own: the smell of the fuel
is annoying; the soot (though minimal) is annoying; the fact that old
fuel tends to clog the generator is annoying.
I have vast experience with an early model WhisperLite--I'm quite
comfortable with it, can control it's idiosyncrasies, know how to
simmer with it, etc. It works well.
Nod. I'll reiterate though that experiences with MSRs
shouldn't be used to judge all other white gas stoves.
IMO, MSRs are among the more finicky of the breed.

(And just to be clear, I don't advocate white gas stoves
for bike touring as a rule, especially on prolonged tours
requiring resupply. Finding white gas is a pain (and when
you do, you have to toss out extra) and burning auto fuel
isn't a good idea due to the nasty additives. I note that
true multi-fuel stoves make sense for adventure travel where
you may need to burn kerosene and such).
Post by Chris Jackson
But canisters are generally
better for me primarily because I can share cooking responsibilities
with my wife and child, who have little interest in learning the MSR.
I also use alcohol stoves (homemade), and like them a lot, though my
wife would find them annoying, too.
In the same way, I wouldn't judge Trangias based on
experiences with homemade alcohol stoves. Trangias allow
you to recap the stove so you don't have to burn all the fuel
or pour it back in the bottle. And, while far from perfect
and while certainly not on par with cannisters, the Trangia
*can* simmer, at least compared to nearly all homemade stoves
I've seen.

They are still harder to use than cannisters though. No question
about that. As a point of reference, my wife got proficient
with the Svea but vastly prefers the Trangia.
Post by Chris Jackson
I think it boils (sorry) down to the fact that there are two types of
bike tourers (backpackers, kayakers, etc): stove hobbyists, and
everyone else. I'm a stove hobbyist, in an admittedly limited way.
For us, dealing with "annoyances" is part of the fun, and we thus
relabel it "technique." For almost everyone else, canisters rule
primarily because they operate so similarly to what most people use
in their homes. There's virtually no learning curve. Now that my
trips are often family affairs, I'm choosing to leave the technique
part out of it so that "dealing with the stove" isn't a dad thing.
I think this is close[1]. I would say that cannisters and
alcohol offer different pros and cons and (like Alex correctly
pointed out) different riders will have different prefs.

Alcohol
-------
Pros:
+ Fuel easily found on extended bike tours
+ Safe (doesn't go bang)
+ Most reliable (no moving parts)
+ Works well in wind (if you have the right windscreen)
+ Small and compact stove unit

Cons:
+ Not the best simmering

Cannisters
----------
Pros:
+ Easiest to use
+ Best simmering

Cons:
+ More troublesome fuel availability on extended bike tours
+ Cannister management


My sense that the biggest trade-offs as they apply to bike touring
are ease of use (cannisters) versus better availability of fuel
(alcohol).

[1] - My zeal (which has clearly gotten me in trouble on this
thread badly) is shaped by winter climbing and ski touring
where lack of technique regarding stoves and a whole bunch
of other issues can have dire ramifications on personal
and group safety. This doesn't really apply to stove
discussions for bike touring (mostly). I apologize again
for my unintentionally sharp tone.

-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
Rob
2008-10-16 06:19:20 UTC
Permalink
I am starting to wonder if you use a different fuel where you are to
what we get here Down Under..!!
We have Arkel panniers with the separate outside fuel bottle pocket, but
have never had any issues with fuel smell.
Also I keep reading about gumming up, soot problems, and clogged
generators. We use Shellite or unleaded petrol
and over at the very least 15 years have never had any of these
problems...!!

The stoves do get a check over and clean out before each tour - though I
have never noticed any build up on them.
The only problem I have ever had was water in the fuel after the stove &
fuel bottle spent he night submerged...
yes it was heavy rain....!!!

The Whisperlite dosent simmer. but its easy (if a little spectacular
after dark) to light. The Dragonfly is simple to light
simmers well, and is adjustable from an afterburner jet to a candle flame.

Previous (ancient) Optimus stoves I've owned have needed a degree in
pyrotechnics to get running and even then an
extinguisher or water bottle was always near by.

Metho is supposed to be easier to get in some places...but in others
anything containing alcohol is banned or at least
restricted. Some places in Central Australia where petrol sniffing is a
problem even unleaded fuel can be difficult to
obtain. Fortunately the Dragonfly will burn Diesel. How do Trangiers go
on diesel..???

Cheers
Rob
Post by Mann, Dave
Post by Chris Jackson
I'll add on to Alex's annoyances with my own: the smell of the fuel
is annoying; the soot (though minimal) is annoying; the fact that old
fuel tends to clog the generator is annoying.
I have vast experience with an early model WhisperLite--I'm quite
comfortable with it, can control it's idiosyncrasies, know how to
simmer with it, etc. It works well.
Nod. I'll reiterate though that experiences with MSRs
shouldn't be used to judge all other white gas stoves.
IMO, MSRs are among the more finicky of the breed.
(And just to be clear, I don't advocate white gas stoves
for bike touring as a rule, especially on prolonged tours
requiring resupply. Finding white gas is a pain (and when
you do, you have to toss out extra) and burning auto fuel
isn't a good idea due to the nasty additives. I note that
true multi-fuel stoves make sense for adventure travel where
you may need to burn kerosene and such).
--
Rob

In sunny Adelaide


Australia is a Dam big country by bike.
South Australia is also the driest State in the driest (inhabited)
continent.


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Mann, Dave
2008-10-16 14:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
I am starting to wonder if you use a different fuel where you are to
what we get here Down Under..!!
[snip...]
Post by Rob
Also I keep reading about gumming up, soot problems, and clogged
generators. We use Shellite or unleaded petrol
and over at the very least 15 years have never had any of these
problems...!!
[snip...]
Post by Rob
How do Trangiers go on diesel..???
There are a couple of great points here.

The first is that it's hard to talk about fuel globably
since the same or similar flamables are called different
things in different places.

If Shellite is gas especially formulated for cooking,
then this is what we commonly call Coleman Fuel here
in the states. It's also often called "White Gas"
as it is on the Optimus web site.

They have an interesting bit on using automotive gas
here:
http://www.optimus.se/index.php?option=com_easyfaq&task=cat&catid=2
8&It
emid=56#faq1

The other interesting point has to do with differing
availabilities of fuels globably. For short bike
tours, it doesn't matter much what you use since you
can carry enough fuel to be self sufficient. But
for longer tours, I think it makes sense to consider
what is commonly available IN THE AREA YOU ARE TOURING.

That last bit is super important and changes from
locale to locale.

In my experience in the rural parts of the US, the
availability of common stove fuels is:
1) Alcohol - found in nearly all hardware stores
as a paint solvent and many gas stations as a fuel
additive
2) White Gas - found in some hardware stores and most
discount department stores like Kmart but only in
gallon containers
3) Cannisters - usually limited to camping supply stores



-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
-------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
-------------------------
Mary Shaw
2008-10-17 19:17:07 UTC
Permalink
With thanks to Roger Caffin, who maintains it, here is a guide to the
international names for stove fuels ...
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_FuelNames.htm

This list is great for vocabulary, but it doesn't tell you where to find the
stuff. When we were in Finland looking for denatured alcohol, we knew to
ask for "denaturoitu sprii", Sinol(tm)m or Marinol(tm). But we didn't know
where to ask. Outdoor store? No Hardware store? No. General goods store?
No. Ah, gas station. But not just any gas station. Most are automated and
unattended, you have to find a gas station with a cashier. When we did,
there was a whole shelf of Sinol.

Mary Shaw
[[snio]]
The first is that it's hard to talk about fuel globably
since the same or similar flamables are called different
things in different places.
[[snip]]
In my experience in the rural parts of the US, the
1) Alcohol - found in nearly all hardware stores
as a paint solvent and many gas stations as a fuel
additive
2) White Gas - found in some hardware stores and most
discount department stores like Kmart but only in
gallon containers
3) Cannisters - usually limited to camping supply stores
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troll
2008-10-17 22:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Evenin' Mary

Thanks Mary for the tip, what a great site. Roger has done his home
work---and you. This should be of great help to our world travellers.
Thanks again Coy&troll

The narrower the road traveled, the greater the reward.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Shaw" <mary.shaw-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Mann, Dave" <damann-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "Touring phred list" <touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Shellite (White Gas) stoves
Post by Mary Shaw
With thanks to Roger Caffin, who maintains it, here is a guide to the
international names for stove fuels ...
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_FuelNames.htm
Peter Saint James
2008-10-16 01:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Dave's comments about when fast heating is important made me realize
what I use my stove for the most on tour and the reason I wouldn't
want to be without a good, reliable one: wash water.

When I don't have a shower available, I want hot water for a sponge
bath. It's often difficult to find on tour, even in the US. More
and more public restrooms have only cold water. In Latin America
there was sometimes a shower that didn't work. I resorted to sponge
bath.

When I want that wash water, I don't want to wait around for it.

Peter
Rob
2008-10-16 06:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Just goes to show the differences when touring....
Many is the time I would have killed for COLD water for a sponge bath.
Standing next to my tent watching the horizon shimmer with heat haze and
sponging the red dust off with luke warm or even hot water..!!
Still evaporation cools you down for a few minutes, then your dry and
already hot and sweaty again.

Still we do have nice camp grounds.

Cheers
Rob
Post by Peter Saint James
Dave's comments about when fast heating is important made me
realize what I use my stove for the most on tour and the reason I
wouldn't want to be without a good, reliable one: wash water.
When I don't have a shower available, I want hot water for a
sponge bath. It's often difficult to find on tour, even in the US.
More and more public restrooms have only cold water. In Latin America
there was sometimes a shower that didn't work. I resorted to sponge
bath.
When I want that wash water, I don't want to wait around for it.
Peter
_______________________________________________
Touring mailing list
Browse and search the archives: http://search.bikelist.org
http://www.phred.org/mailman/options/touring
--
Rob

In sunny Adelaide


Australia is a Dam big country by bike.
South Australia is also the driest State in the driest (inhabited)
continent.
John Meier
2008-10-15 00:41:40 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mann, Dave" <damann-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "John Meier" <jm1226-***@public.gmane.org>; "Wayne Estes" <w9ae-***@public.gmane.org>;
<touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: Too Much Stuff
Post by John Meier
This spring I spent some time camping with one of the guys at MSR
who is in charge of developing stoves. His stove of choice is the
MSR Reactor. We spent several beers talking about stoves and I am
really impressed with the Reactor. It will be my next stove. It is
incredibly fast in boiling water. I don't have any time with the
stove so I don't know how it simmers stuff. It looks like it would do
a fair job not burning stuff like those jet engine stoves.
http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/reactor.asp
What's the hurry when it comes to boiling times?



Dave

It's not always about the fast boil time as Alex points out. It
actually took me quite a while to move over to the canister fuel stoves.
Like most people I started out with a Svea then went to a Whisperlite
International for years up till one trip were the stove lit the picnic table
on fire. I then played around with alcohol stoves. Once I bit the bullet
and went with the canister fuel stoves there is no turning back for me. The
are just way to convenient. Throwing away the empty canister is still an
evil thing to do but I've got enough green points in the bank to get over
the guilt in that.

John Meier
Washougal, Wa
alex wetmore
2008-10-15 05:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Throwing away the empty canister is still an evil thing to do but
I've got enough green points in the bank to get over the guilt in
that.
They are steel and can be recycled in almost all municipalities. Empty
ones don't weigh much, so I just carry them until I find a good place
to recycle them.

alex
John Meier
2008-10-15 13:17:55 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "alex wetmore" <alex-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "John Meier" <jm1226-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "Mann, Dave" <damann-***@public.gmane.org>; <touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Too Much Stuff
Post by alex wetmore
Throwing away the empty canister is still an evil thing to do but
I've got enough green points in the bank to get over the guilt in
that.
They are steel and can be recycled in almost all municipalities. Empty
ones don't weigh much, so I just carry them until I find a good place
to recycle them.
alex
Do the recycling guys flinch when they see a fuel can in the recycling
bin? Seems to me they have no way to tell if it's empty or not. It is a
flammable compressed gas after all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for recycling and now that I've been advised
both on and off list it's possible to recycle them, my empties will
defiantly be in my recycling bin.

John Meier
Chris Jackson
2008-10-15 01:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
This form of cannister stove, imo, is a hyper-specialized
tool for climbers. I just don't get their appeal for general
backpacking or for bike touring. So they boil water in under
4 minutes? I'm not sure what buys me on the trail.
Besides the points raised by Alex and others, the JetBoil and similar are
more efficient--canisters last longer, a real benefit for me.

I was a long time WhisperLite devotee, and now alternate between JetBoil,
homemade alcohol stoves, and my personal favorite, a hobo wood burner. The
latter, made from a coffee can with strategically placed holes, works
surprisingly well, but it's bulky and dirty to touch.

Chris


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Jon Meinecke
2008-10-13 21:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Estes
My stove is heavy and Coleman fuel is increasingly difficult to find,
The Nova can burn unleaded gasoline without changing any
parts...
Post by Wayne Estes
Post by Jon Meinecke
For my liquid fuel stove (Optimus Nova), that's maybe 6 days "cooking"
I have a Coleman Peak 1 stove, too. One of the "original" ones
with two control valves (one controls level, the other is off/run/light).
Post by Wayne Estes
For me, 24 ounces of Coleman fuel lasts about 2 weeks with the
Coleman Peak1stove. The Optimus Nova stove seemed to consume
fuel at a faster rate.
I haven't really measured fuel use of my Nova. It is a bit louder than
the Peak, but my canister stove on high is load, too. I actually like
the separate fuel bottle. When I use my Outback oven on the Nova,
I don't have to worry about overheating the fuel tank.There's a reflector
collar that I've used with the Peak, but I won't use the Outback
oven on my isobutane canister stove.
Post by Wayne Estes
My typical daily stove use is to heat water for tea in the morning, and then
cook pasta in the evening.
Likewise, though sometimes the evening is a bit more eloborate. Cooking
gingerbread with the Outback oven, for instance, takes 10-15 minutes
on low.
Post by Wayne Estes
Some people tour with only 30 pounds of stuff. I sometimes
haul 30 pounds of just food, water,
If you're going where the water isn't, even a couple of day's
supply adds up quickly. The nice thing about carrying lots
of food is that the load gets lighter.
Post by Wayne Estes
and beverages!
Maybe not just Gatorade? %^)

Jon
robert clark
2008-10-14 20:54:00 UTC
Permalink
I've had no trouble with MSR stoves,

NB: the windscreen is also a heat shield between the burner and the tank.
,\' don't leave it off is a handy hint..

I've used the Internationale whisperlight on unleaded petrol exclusively,
solving the sourcing of more fuel, just got a few dimes worth in the 22
fl.oz.
tank/bottle , which packs on the under-downtube waterbottle cage ..

likewise the Dragonfly, IMHO.
if it's got a Kerosene jet option, its fuel supply tube is larger too

that's the upgrade from one whisperlight model to the other ..


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Markku Klubb
2008-10-15 00:06:41 UTC
Permalink
I've used an MSR XKG for last 2-3 decades without any problems, finding t
hat unleaded gas works fine in the US, GB or the Nordic countries, and
I have always cleaned it after a trip so I have never had a clogging proble
m. The handy little maintenance and spares kit is still available. I used
to worry about using the "toxic" unleaded fuel, but now it is a standard
recommendation in the literature about the stove.

It cooks VERY FAST or VBERY SLOW. The biggest problem is the NOIZZZE it ma
kes (thus the "Whisperlite" was developed). When people hear it and come o
ver to talk about it I just tell them the guy I bought it from took in on a
climb of K-2, and that entertains them.

I only carry the fuel on the lower down tube bottle rack otherwise I am sur
e it might stink up the pannier it was in.
Markku Klubb
Seattle, Washington
USA


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Bill Gibson
2008-10-15 00:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Stoves have become a small vice of mine. Over the decades I've used
the Svea 123 and a Primus in a box white gas stove, an MSR Whisperlite
and XGK, and the little butane MSR burner, an ultralight alcohol can
burner and the Trangia burner in various windscreens, including the
full Trangia cookset with little kettle. And the windscreen is very
important, always.

I now prefer the quiet, slow heat of alcohol burners, and I like the
screw-on cap and adjustable cooking/snuffing cap of the Trangia best
of all. The cookset windscreen makes an excellent combination, but I
have a little folding stainless steel one, too. I don't need to boil
water as fast as possible and I like the peace and quiet, plus I feel
more comfortable with the less explosive alcohol fuel, which doesn't
stink as badly, either. And I like my Kelly Kettle, too, when I just
need to boil water on a trip, and live where it's always easy to find
dry sticks. I even boil up in the back yard to make my afternoon tea
when I can't go on a tour and need a little fun... playing with my
stove, how sad... ;-)
Post by Markku Klubb
I've used an MSR XKG for last 2-3 decades without any problems, finding t
hat unleaded gas works fine in the US, GB or the Nordic countries, and
I have always cleaned it after a trip so I have never had a clogging proble
m. The handy little maintenance and spares kit is still available. I used
to worry about using the "toxic" unleaded fuel, but now it is a standard
recommendation in the literature about the stove.
It cooks VERY FAST or VBERY SLOW. The biggest problem is the NOIZZZE it ma
kes (thus the "Whisperlite" was developed). When people hear it and come o
ver to talk about it I just tell them the guy I bought it from took in on a
climb of K-2, and that entertains them.
I only carry the fuel on the lower down tube bottle rack otherwise I am sur
e it might stink up the pannier it was in.
Markku Klubb
Seattle, Washington
USA
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_______________________________________________
Touring mailing list
Browse and search the archives: http://search.bikelist.org
http://www.phred.org/mailman/options/touring
--
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA
troll
2008-10-15 02:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Hey Bill

Backyard, how sad? Don't think so. I too can still go out in my backyard
and play---even after 60 years, I haven't forgot how to play in the back
yard. We are blessed---enjoy my friend. Yes, camp, cook over an open fire,
pitch a tent, bring marshmellows, hotdogs, invite the kids over, No? fine
break out the JD and make plans for your next tour. Try out a few
menus---on someone else, ha---. Pitch your tent in total darkness. Put
the coffee on at dawn, crack a few eggs----enjoy Coy&troll


The narrower the road traveled, the greater the reward.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gibson" <bill.bgibson-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Markku Klubb" <cykelturist-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc: <touring-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: What kind of Stove?
Post by Bill Gibson
Stoves have become a small vice of mine. Over the decades I've used
the Svea 123 and a Primus in a box white gas stove, an MSR Whisperlite
and XGK, and the little butane MSR burner, an ultralight alcohol can
burner and the Trangia burner in various windscreens, including the
full Trangia cookset with little kettle. And the windscreen is very
important, always.
I now prefer the quiet, slow heat of alcohol burners, and I like the
screw-on cap and adjustable cooking/snuffing cap of the Trangia best
of all. The cookset windscreen makes an excellent combination, but I
have a little folding stainless steel one, too. I don't need to boil
water as fast as possible and I like the peace and quiet, plus I feel
more comfortable with the less explosive alcohol fuel, which doesn't
stink as badly, either. And I like my Kelly Kettle, too, when I just
need to boil water on a trip, and live where it's always easy to find
dry sticks. I even boil up in the back yard to make my afternoon tea
when I can't go on a tour and need a little fun... playing with my
stove, how sad... ;-)
Post by Markku Klubb
I've used an MSR XKG for last 2-3 decades without any problems, finding t
hat unleaded gas works fine in the US, GB or the Nordic countries, and
I have always cleaned it after a trip so I have never had a clogging proble
m. The handy little maintenance and spares kit is still available. I used
to worry about using the "toxic" unleaded fuel, but now it is a standard
recommendation in the literature about the stove.
It cooks VERY FAST or VBERY SLOW. The biggest problem is the NOIZZZE it ma
kes (thus the "Whisperlite" was developed). When people hear it and come o
ver to talk about it I just tell them the guy I bought it from took in on a
climb of K-2, and that entertains them.
I only carry the fuel on the lower down tube bottle rack otherwise I am sur
e it might stink up the pannier it was in.
Markku Klubb
Seattle, Washington
USA
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_______________________________________________
Touring mailing list
Browse and search the archives: http://search.bikelist.org
http://www.phred.org/mailman/options/touring
--
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA
_______________________________________________
Touring mailing list
Browse and search the archives: http://search.bikelist.org
http://www.phred.org/mailman/options/touring
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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2:02 AM
Bill Gibson
2008-10-15 02:06:53 UTC
Permalink
See, this is a great bike club!
Post by troll
Hey Bill
Backyard, how sad? Don't think so. I too can still go out in my backyard
and play---even after 60 years, I haven't forgot how to play in the back
yard. We are blessed---enjoy my friend. Yes, camp, cook over an open fire,
pitch a tent, bring marshmellows, hotdogs, invite the kids over, No? fine
break out the JD and make plans for your next tour. Try out a few
menus---on someone else, ha---. Pitch your tent in total darkness. Put
the coffee on at dawn, crack a few eggs----enjoy Coy&troll
The narrower the road traveled, the greater the reward.
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: What kind of Stove?
Post by Bill Gibson
Stoves have become a small vice of mine. Over the decades I've used
the Svea 123 and a Primus in a box white gas stove, an MSR Whisperlite
and XGK, and the little butane MSR burner, an ultralight alcohol can
burner and the Trangia burner in various windscreens, including the
full Trangia cookset with little kettle. And the windscreen is very
important, always.
I now prefer the quiet, slow heat of alcohol burners, and I like the
screw-on cap and adjustable cooking/snuffing cap of the Trangia best
of all. The cookset windscreen makes an excellent combination, but I
have a little folding stainless steel one, too. I don't need to boil
water as fast as possible and I like the peace and quiet, plus I feel
more comfortable with the less explosive alcohol fuel, which doesn't
stink as badly, either. And I like my Kelly Kettle, too, when I just
need to boil water on a trip, and live where it's always easy to find
dry sticks. I even boil up in the back yard to make my afternoon tea
when I can't go on a tour and need a little fun... playing with my
stove, how sad... ;-)
Post by Markku Klubb
I've used an MSR XKG for last 2-3 decades without any problems, finding t
hat unleaded gas works fine in the US, GB or the Nordic countries, and
I have always cleaned it after a trip so I have never had a clogging proble
m. The handy little maintenance and spares kit is still available. I used
to worry about using the "toxic" unleaded fuel, but now it is a standard
recommendation in the literature about the stove.
It cooks VERY FAST or VBERY SLOW. The biggest problem is the NOIZZZE it ma
kes (thus the "Whisperlite" was developed). When people hear it and come o
ver to talk about it I just tell them the guy I bought it from took in on a
climb of K-2, and that entertains them.
I only carry the fuel on the lower down tube bottle rack otherwise I am sur
e it might stink up the pannier it was in.
Markku Klubb
Seattle, Washington
USA
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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA
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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA
Nom DePost
2008-10-15 23:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by . dkoloko
Be interested in your packing list.
better would be to go /your/ gear at the /end/ of a trip and find the
stuff you didn't use and ask yourself, "why?".
. dkoloko
2008-10-16 00:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nom DePost
Post by . dkoloko
Be interested in your packing list.
better would be to go /your/ gear at the /end/ of a trip and find the
stuff you didn't use and ask yourself, "why?".
I do that, and also learn from the list.

Demetri


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Tom Marchand
2008-10-16 00:49:12 UTC
Permalink
A better way may be to start with nothing and aquire items along the
way as needed.
Post by Nom DePost
Post by . dkoloko
Be interested in your packing list.
better would be to go /your/ gear at the /end/ of a trip and find the
stuff you didn't use and ask yourself, "why?".
Nom DePost
2008-10-15 23:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Meinecke
The Nova can burn unleaded gasoline without changing any
parts...
When I use my Outback oven on the Nova,
i hope you read the stuff about /not/ using unleaded gas & Outback ovens.
Jon Meinecke
2008-10-16 02:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nom DePost
Post by Jon Meinecke
The Nova can burn unleaded gasoline without changing any
parts...
When I use my Outback oven on the Nova,
i hope you read the stuff about /not/ using unleaded gas & Outback ovens.
I haven't carried my Outback oven on a bike tour. I have carried it
backpacking on shorter trips and often use it when car camping.
I've only used Coleman fuel (white gas) with the oven.

I presume the concern is that additives in unleaded gasoline
might be contentrated by the oven bonnet. Perhaps. There
are no specific warnings at the Backpacker's Pantry website...
Still, I would avoid it. I view the gasoline option as a fallback
fuel for my stove and prefer white gas.

The number of posts and amount of heat that this topic
has raised indicates a lot of people have strong opinions!
All kinds of stoves have their pluses and minus. Perhaps
that's why I have five different ones (including Coleman
2-burner) using three different fuels. %^) I pack the one
that seems best for the type of cooking I'm planning and
for the number of days I plan to be out.

Jon


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Moni
2008-10-16 00:03:38 UTC
Permalink
First off, sorry for not changing my subject line in my last post answer.

Then, I forgot to add: you can use heet in the yellow bottle, which
can be found at most c stores. This is one of the best reasons to use
a trangia for me.

Here is that post again.
Post by Scott Loveless
The mini Trangia is on my short list at the moment. What are you seeing
as far as boil times? I like steel cut oats in the morning, and that
requires bringing the water (about a cup) to a boil and them simmering
for about 10 minutes, maybe longer. How well does the Trangia's simmer
ring work? And how long can you simmer a pot after bringing it to a boil?
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=20217&v=70
I really don't time how long it takes to boil water, as I don't really
boil water. I cook on my cooksets. :)
The simmer ring works fine for me. I have also used a wok on my
trangia, and managed to cook pasta in it, as well as pop popcorn in
it.
Look for pictures of food I cooked, using my alcohol stoves here (we
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=33762&v=4B
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=33798&v=4I
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=34072&v=3s
Just keep looking in my journals, I have more food pictures here and there. :)
--
Moni
Paul
2008-10-16 13:56:06 UTC
Permalink
It helps me to visualize some of these stove systems in action
and of course some of them are posted on YouTube.

Primus Eta




JetBoil


MSR Reactor


MSR Reator and Primus Eta


Trangia





Caldera Cone (Non YouTube Video)
http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Videos/Search-Results/Camping--backpacking/Gear-Exclusive-Trail-Designs-Caldera-Stove/

Clikstand
http://www.clikstand.com/

Safe Travels,
Paul C
Dallas,TX area
Nom DePost
2008-10-16 20:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Marchand
Post by Nom DePost
Post by . dkoloko
Be interested in your packing list.
better would be to go /your/ gear at the /end/ of a trip and
find the stuff you didn't use and ask yourself, "why?".
A better way may be to start with nothing and aquire items along the
way as needed.
i've sorta done it that way, starting with the bare minimum and credit
carding needed items.
this method presupposes the availability of the needed items. it'll
work (for the most part) in Europe, won't on Great Western Divide.


"it didn't work with replacing 630 tires in Europe in '76."
Nom DePost
2008-10-16 20:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Meinecke
Post by Nom DePost
Post by Jon Meinecke
The Nova can burn unleaded gasoline without changing any
parts...
When I use my Outback oven on the Nova,
i hope you read the stuff about /not/ using unleaded gas &
Outback ovens.
I presume the concern is that additives in unleaded gasoline
might be contentrated by the oven bonnet. Perhaps. There
are no specific warnings at the Backpacker's Pantry website...
Still, I would avoid it. I view the gasoline option as a fallback
fuel for my stove and prefer white gas.
yes it's the additives. i'm pretty sure i read it w/ the Outback oven
instructions (i RTFM on occasion). i'm surprised it ain't on the w-pg given
all tree nut Doom'N'Gloom found.
Post by Jon Meinecke
The number of posts and amount of heat that this topic
has raised indicates a lot of people have strong opinions!
All kinds of stoves have their pluses and minus. Perhaps
that's why I have five different ones (including Coleman
2-burner) using three different fuels. %^) I pack the one
that seems best for the type of cooking I'm planning and
for the number of days I plan to be out.
yeah, i own a few:
Hank Roberts Mini-Stove (that i plan on switching to propane one day)
Bluet GAZ (perfect for Europe back then)
MSR MF (unparalleled for snow to water, I SAID, UNPARALLELED FOR... )
Coleman 400 (yeah, my control knobs are a little melted)
Primus Grasshopper (it's in my "credit meltdown" (then "Y2k") kit)
Coleman Apex (best for the Outback Oven but you waste a fair amount of fuel
starting it)
MSR WhisterLite (very efficient, both fuel usage & pack-to-boil)
Trangia alcohol
Nom DePost
2008-10-17 16:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mann, Dave
2) White Gas - found in some hardware stores and most
discount department stores like Kmart but only in
gallon containers
i tried naphtha, commonly available in (US) hardware stores, as a
replacement for white gas, typically identified as "naphtha":
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha>
using it in my Whisperlite (? or was it my Coleman Apex?), it was slow
starting, sooty, & poor low throttle performance.


"damn, why bother to RTFM?"




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